Technical communication, marketing, and AI: in conversation with Zohra Mutabanna

Ready to reshape your understanding of effective communication? Unlock the secrets of meshing Technical Communication and Marketing with Felicity Brand and our special guest, Zohra Mutabanna from the Inside Tech Com podcast.

Check out more Inside Tech Com here: https://www.insidetechcomm.show/1728253

Zohra and Felicity delve into the crucial role of empathy, clarity, and trust in establishing successful marketing strategies. Sharing their experiences, they take you on a journey through a landscape where active listening and detailed clarity aren’t just nice-to-have, but pivotal to survival.

They also talk about maintaining consistency within a large team. Hear firsthand how a structured team, clever use of tools like Slack, and fostering a culture of collaboration can smoothen your path to success.

Our experts also explore the potentials and pitfalls of AI in technical writing and remote work. They share our experiences with AI tools like ChatGPT and Bard, and how they can either be a game-changer or a challenging adversary.

Welcome to the Open Strategy Partners podcast, "Communicate, Connect, Grow!" At Open Strategy Partners, we specialize in strategic product communication. We help you communicate the value of what you do, connect you with the people who need to know about it, and grow.

To get in touch with us, follow what we’re doing, or learn about our Writer Enablement Workshops, you can:

• Go to our website
• Email us at hello@openstrategypartners.com
• Hit us up on Twitter
• Subscribe to our podcast wherever you listen to podcasts

Transcript

Carl Richards: 0:07

Hi, i'm Carl and this is Communicate Connect Grow, the open strategy partners podcast. This is a very special crossover episode with Zohra Mutabanna from the Inside Tech Comm podcast. At OSP, we do a lot of thinking about what makes for effective, consistent communication. In this podcast, we want to show you how we translate between technical complexity and business value to create strategic product communication at OSP and we want to learn more from you and our guests. This episode is part of our Connect series on the podcast. Connect episodes are in-depth conversations with interesting, smart people about who they are, what they do and how they approach their life and work as communicators, technologists and leaders. Today, OSPea Felicity Brand sits down with Zohra Mutabanna from the Inside Tech Comm podcast to chat about what makes a great communicator, where Tech comm and Marcomm meet, working remote first and all things AI. Please enjoy this conversation with Felicity and Zohra.

Felicity Brand: 1:26

I'm excited today for our crossover episode with open strategy partners Ozpod and the host of Inside Tech Comm, Zohra Mutabana. Hello Zohra, hi Felicity, nice to meet you And you. I'm really pleased to speak with you. Maybe let's start with some introductions. Perhaps could you tell us who you are and what you do, absolutely.

Zohra Mutabanna: 1:50

My name is Zohra Mutabana. I live in Dallas, Texas, USA. I work as a technical writer, as a senior technical writer, with a company called BlackBot. I went to school to become a technical writer. I have been a technical writer since 2004, so coming up on two decades. I have mostly worked with tech companies and kind of specializing, or rather focusing, in the cybersecurity area. That's been my niche. I also am the host of the Inside Tech Comm podcast. I live and breathe technical communication.

Felicity Brand: 2:28

I love it. I love it Me too, and I feel like it's a vocation. You know, even if you weren't working as a technical writer, you can't switch it off. It's always in your brain And when I'm out in the world, that's kind of how my mind works. So I, there are some. We have some similarities.

Felicity Brand: 2:46

So I also went to school for technical communication. I did a postgraduate course here in Melbourne, Australia. I was a business analyst before that. Nobody knew what a BA was back then. And then I went into technical writing and nobody knew what technical writing was when I was at dinner parties. And I also have pretty much worked in software, my career. I've been a tech writer for 14 years. I call myself a technical communicator, But for the last four years I've been with OSP working in marketing communication. I really enjoy it. I think some maybe some of your listeners or I might think I've gone to the other side, but I think that there is some real value that technical writers can bring to that marketing perspective. So if you want to dive into that, i'm happy to talk more about that.

Zohra Mutabanna: 3:42

I would love for you to talk more about it because, if I may say so, i'm a little bit envious of you because you seem to have worn several hats, which I haven't had the chance to do. My mindset is just that of a technical communicator And I like that word, but I think, with everything that you have done in your career, i can only imagine the depth of skills that you can bring. And yes, i would love to. I would love for us to see how we can bridge the two fields.

Felicity Brand: 4:10

Yeah, And that's something that OSP feel really strongly about, and I think I probably could only ever work in marketing which I do now at a place where I felt, i suppose, safe, like at OSP. So in my previous working history I was in organizations, and always as a technical writer in the technology department, you know, working with developers in the product management area, and then we would have this big kind of gap, this chasm, and then we would have to work with the marketing department when it came to release time And as the technical writer you're normally kind of the I don't know the spokesperson, the front face, like it's normally send the tech writer over to talk with the marketing people and tell them what's in the latest release, or they will come to you and say, why is this feature good? And then you find yourself kind of at this, this crunchy area. Yeah, you know, there is this saying that I've heard developers are allergic to marketing And I don't know how true that is, but I think the landscape is changing a little bit. But at Open Strategy Partners, i suppose the only reason that I can sleep at night is because we focus on this thing called authentic communication.

Felicity Brand: 5:29

So empathy, clarity and trust is how we live and work, and that just means that we have empathy for our audience. So we understand who's reading what we're writing, and we know that they need everything to be really clear. We need to get the details right. We need to understand what we're talking about. So that means we have to understand the tech. If we're talking about a service or a product and it's features, we need to be able to say how is this gonna make your job easier or your life better? And as a technical writer, I like detail, I like to get the facts right, and so that's kind of how we create all our communication at OSP. So something that we really value at OSP is empathy. And, Zohra, i've noticed as a listener of your podcast you're really good at active listening and that's really important for empathy. So I wanted to know is that something that comes naturally to you, or did you have to kind of work at that to build that skill?

Zohra Mutabanna: 6:29

First of all, thank you for listening to my podcast. I always love it. It's such a niche podcast. It's got a very niche audience, so I really appreciate it.

Zohra Mutabanna: 6:38

And about being an active listener, i think it has taken me a while to really get to this point. I don't think I was a natural at it And one of the reasons I did the podcast was sort of to improve upon that skill of mine. As technical writers you are always interviewing But you always have retakes when you are not in front of the camera. But as a podcaster I've had to really really focus on that skill And, to be honest, before I launched my podcast I probably interviewed eight people, eight guinea pigs, and I would record those sessions and look at myself And I would hate it. I would talk over people, i would repeat myself.

Zohra Mutabanna: 7:29

What I'm trying to say is it did not come overnight. I really had to practice before I got to a point where I was comfortable And of course, my podcasts are not live, so I also have the advantage of editing out what I don't need. But just that listening part. I also realized I had some best practices for myself. Like I take notes as somebody's talking to me And if I'm listening, then I'm able to take notes, and I'm listening with the intent to have a follow-up question, not just so that I have a bunch of questions that are scripted And then I ask you a question just for the sake of asking, but trying to make it organic. So it's been a process.

Felicity Brand: 8:09

I love that And have you found that it has helped you in your everyday job? Can you take that skill into your working?

Zohra Mutabanna: 8:16

life. Definitely, like I said, i tend to speak over others, sometimes not intentionally, and I'm trying to put that into practice even now. Yes, absolutely. I try to make sure that I let the other person speak and finish, and when I see like OK, there's this natural pause, then I try to take my turn. But I think it's just helped me communicate better. You know, when I listen, i'm able to communicate better.

Felicity Brand: 8:45

As I understand it, you work with a large team of writers at your job. I'd be really interested to know a bit more about the structure and how you all work, I suppose.

Zohra Mutabanna: 8:56

Yes, absolutely So. I work for a company called Blackboard, which is based out of South Carolina, and I've been with this company for two years And the team I think we are about 30 writers. In my entire career I have never worked with such a large team. We have a director And then we have, i believe, three managers, and each manager has a set of you know, i think a team of six people six to eight people reporting into them.

Zohra Mutabanna: 9:25

When I joined the team, i thought, oh my god, how will I get to know all these people? Right, but the cool thing was we had to, within the first, i think, month, what I did. This is something that is recommended, and my manager, who onboarded me, suggested that I just do like a meet and greet. We are a remote first company, so I'm not going to get to meet these people. So one of the things that we did, or we do, to overcome this barrier of not knowing your entire team is to do a meet and greet. So I did a meet and greet with everybody And there was no timeline to do that, so that was one of the practices that I think really helped me to get to know what each member of the team does and how we can collaborate as we progress further in our careers. So that was one of the best practices that benefited me.

Zohra Mutabanna: 10:16

I believe I'm an introvert, but probably not. I think the podcast has helped me, but just interacting with people, i realized that there are people on my team who are people of few words, so I really had to draw information out of them Over the last two years. The way the teams have been set up and also the collaboration tools that we use, like we use Slack, we use Teams. The one thing that is front and center felicity is empathy. We treat each other with empathy. We talk about empathy when we talk about our audience, but the culture is one of empathy, which I'm so grateful for, because I've been on teams where that's not front and center.

Zohra Mutabanna: 11:01

On the team, there is burnout. Of course, there is always burnout in any profession, but the empathy that my managers and my team bring to the table has helped me work with this team and learn so much, and I had a buddy when I started. We have office hours for UX. You know there are so many things that have been done right.

Zohra Mutabanna: 11:24

In my personal opinion, i have benefited from those best practices, those industry practices and just the team culture. David Owens is my director and my manager is Colleen, And my director has been a guest on my podcast, you know. So that tells you how comfortable I am with, you know, with the people I report to. So it's just the team culture and I think even the company culture at large. But I would really speak to my team culture because those are the people that I interact with on a day-to-day basis The product managers that I work with we have Agile, we use Safe Product managers, the developers everybody that I work with have been very welcoming, very warm and very, very empathetic And that has helped me be the best in my authentic self.

Felicity Brand: 12:15

Yeah, i love that and I have a lot of similarities. It's so great to hear when remote first companies get it right or do things well. I also am remote. Well, osp, i suppose, are remote first, where we do have a headquarters in Cologne in Germany, but I'm in Melbourne, australia. We have a distributed team and I think we also have some practices that make my working life really enjoyable and I feel very connected with everyone in the team and that's because you have to work at it. You can't just do nothing and you slack and expect there to be connection. And you're right about the empathy and we have a gratitude channel. So we will celebrate successes, both working and personal. We'll kind of cheer each other on, which is really nice.

Felicity Brand: 13:07

We have a weekly team meeting which occurs in my small hours, 2 or 3 am, so I don't attend. But what we instituted this year was well, i think last year I said you know, can you record that so I can see everyone? So we did that for a little while and I would get up the next day and watch the recording and see everyone's faces and then I thought, well, they're not seeing me. So what we do now is I get up first and record my little section of the meeting and then when everyone comes online to join the meeting, they all watch me. So it works for us and I think it really helps just have that face time. You know people are seeing each other and it helps make you feel like a team. We also do gratitude statements in our meetings so everyone will kind of say what they're grateful for, and it could be in their personal life or at work and that's just a nice daily practice to. I love that, yeah, to help us feel connected.

Felicity Brand: 14:09

And I did just want to say one more thing about empathy. So you know, we talk about authentic communication at OSP and we apply that in the work that we do, the content we create. But we also, you know, it's the first place I've worked where the managers so the co-founders, jam and Tracy they really practice what they preach, and so we have had moments where maybe things haven't quite gone right or we'll have discussions about is this working or have we made a mistake and how can we fix that, and it gets really kind of raw and vulnerable. But you only grow out of those kind of discussions And what I really like about my team is that we're all kind of lifelong learners and we're all constantly trying to get better and be our best selves and work the best way we can. So yeah, you know you can. People throw the word empathy around. It takes work and it is practice and you have to commit to it. I think it's very interesting.

Zohra Mutabanna: 15:13

Oh, definitely, definitely, i think you it's a, you have to work at it, and if everybody has to invest into it, otherwise it's not going to work. Yeah, absolutely. I think, I love the great, the gratitude statements that you talked about. We do that too. You know we have a safe zone when I can say anything to my manager. that again makes me feel very comfortable in my own skin And if I, if I make a mistake, i know I can own it and I'm not going to be punished for it, but grow from it.

Felicity Brand: 15:43

Yes, yeah, it's, it's great. Yeah, it's a wonderful way to work. I love it. So you mentioned your large team. I'm curious about processes. So how do you keep consistency across so many people?

Zohra Mutabanna: 15:59

Good question The way the team is structured, apart from the managers that have direct reports, there are leads. There is a UX lead, there is a accessibility lead right, and there are these small teams, right, and anybody can volunteer to be on those. So, for example, accessibility has a bunch of writers who are passionate about it And they sort of, i would say, work with marketing and probably legal to put the standards in place, and there's immense documentation. Right, we love to write, but I think that is really the core that drives how we all work together, right, right, so we have a style, style guide.

Felicity Brand: 16:48

For sure Those decisions get documented and your other writers know. Then to that.

Zohra Mutabanna: 16:54

Right, yes, and we have. You know, since I think I mentioned, we use Slack and there are channels for accessibility, for help strategy, for UX, and if you have any questions you can just post it there And then somebody from the team steps in and, you know, walks you through it. Or you can just brainstorm And if I'm right now working on a UI copy and I'm actually writing toast messages, it sounds very simple but there is a ton of documentation. But I'm like it would be great if somebody could just look this over, or I could just brainstorm this with anybody on my team I can reach out to and ask if they have the time. If not, i can take it to office hours and I can share. So you have to be a little gutsy sometimes if you want to do that And a bunch of team members will come on, come to office hours and they will.

Zohra Mutabanna: 17:42

They'll give their feedback. I won't say they critique it, they give their feedback. So it's again because empathy is at its core of all these discussions. I personally do not hesitate to reach out, ask for help. So it's just the whole culture, the whole dynamic that has set me up, so the system is set me. Setting me up for success? is, i think, what I'm trying to get to?

Felicity Brand: 18:02

Yes, yes, i love that, So I did want to move on, but I just wanted to ask one quick question about your office hours. So I have not heard that. Can you just explain how that works?

Zohra Mutabanna: 18:13

Absolutely. For example, i've talked about UX, user experience. Right, i'm writing UI copy. I'm working with the designer and the product manager to write UI copy. Now, it could be one simple landing page or it could be multiple. It could be a wizard. So just just pick anything right. And let's say, i'm writing copy and I'm struggling with it, So these office hours are just penciled in.

Zohra Mutabanna: 18:36

They're standing meetings every week, so I can bring anything that I'm struggling with to the office hours and I can say Hey, guys and gals, i'm struggling with this. Or I have come up with this copy. What do you all think? Does this align with our tone, our voice, our style? What kind of suggestions can you give?

Zohra Mutabanna: 18:56

And there is, like I said, our UX lead runs that meeting. Anybody can run that meeting. But we have Roxana who runs that meeting and we can come with any question that is related to user experience And Roxana will give her tips, but anybody can give their feedback. So it becomes like a team effort at that point. And I know that if nobody's available let's say it's a busy week for everybody on my team somebody or the other is always available to help me out, but if I have a tech question. There's somebody who is a tech geek on my team. I can reach out to them. So I can just tap into everybody and I don't take it personally if they say, hey, i'm not available right away. And we also try to respect each other's timings. We put it on their calendar to make sure that people have focus time, but these office hours allow us to really bring our questions and talk about it, whatever that is in that allocated hour.

Felicity Brand: 19:46

Yeah, i love that. It's something that I miss. working remote is being in kind of a busy cross-functional team where you can just walk up to people's desks and someone else might over here and you'll end up having a little huddle discussion about a feature or writing. So you have to work harder at that when you're remote to try and facilitate those conversations to happen. Absolutely, absolutely.

Zohra Mutabanna: 20:09

And I think the channels that we have the Slack channels kind of I think try to mimic that where I post something and there's this chatter and anybody can jump in. Of course there's nothing gets close to in-person interactions but, the culture. This collaborative culture definitely lends itself to being more productive and collaborative.

Felicity Brand: 20:33

Yes. So let's talk about the subject on everyone's lips AI, and I know you've been speaking to a few people lately who and you've been talking about this topic of AI and generative content, so I'd like to know what are your thoughts at the moment. Are you feeling cautiously optimistic? Are you excited? Are you worried? Cautiously optimistic?

Zohra Mutabanna: 20:56

You said it Exactly, exactly, that I'm cautiously optimistic. I think somebody mentioned on some webinar being a techno optimist, and that's exactly what I am, but I'm very cautious about it. One day I wake up and I'm like AI cannot replace me. And I wake up the next day and I'm like, oh, ai is definitely going to replace me. So I think we are all kind of teaching on that And I think it's going to be that way until there is going to be some regulation put into place.

Felicity Brand: 21:27

I read an interesting article yesterday that was talking about that the idea of garbage in, garbage out but also saying that at the moment, while we still need tech writers, perhaps we need to be thinking about writing not just for our human readers, but also being aware, as we write, that it could be an AI that's consuming this to then spit it out later. So I thought that was a really interesting kind of way to frame it, and I wondered how you might write differently knowing that an AI is going to be consuming it. I wondered about structured content, or I didn't actually have any answers, but I thought that's so interesting.

Zohra Mutabanna: 22:05

When I think about garbage and garbage out and I think you framed that really well we need to start thinking about not just a human audience, but AI as our audience as well. The one thing that I worry about is bias and inaccuracies. In my perspective, those are two things. That I would be focusing on is the bias, because that is one thing that is in our control, and the less we feed that into the dataset, the better the output will be from the AI.

Felicity Brand: 22:35

Yeah, we should dig into that. Personally, i have been using chat GPT for fun and for a little bit of a leg up in my work. At the moment We use it as a tool where we're mindfully researching it and we're going to try and embrace it to the extent that it can be helpful to us. I don't think that we are running scared and I don't think that we're afraid for our jobs. It is really useful, and particularly any of the manual or tedious parts of writing and technical writing that it can do. I'm all for that. Use a tool to help you do the boring bits so that you can focus on the fun parts or the creative parts or the parts that you really can add value. As we know, it has shortcomings at the moment. I suspect that's probably going to be improved very quickly. But, yeah, i think it behooves us to be aware of it and to pay attention to it so that we're not scrambling to catch up.

Zohra Mutabanna: 23:40

I used bot today to do my research, for actually to prep myself on what is AI, what is under the hood? if I had to explain that, definitely, bard is integrated with the Google search. The data set is more current, unlike ChatGPT. But until this point I have been exclusively been using ChatGPT, probably just because it's been available. I think the experience is very similar with both tools. But I think you're right, chatgpt is. Its data set is not very current, so you have to be mindful of that. But with Bard, that worry goes away. But it's just the way they were spitting out data.

Zohra Mutabanna: 24:22

I was not very happy with it. For example, i asked Bard can you tell me in a very non-technical way what is AI? And the explanation it spit out to me was pretty long and verbose. I think ChatGPT did a better job of that. Same question, the same prompt, the exact same prompt. Chatgpt gave a better answer, i think. At the end of the day, these are all tools that we are going to end up using And we have to be mindful of those tools. I'm using ChatGPT to. I just put in a prompt. I want to learn how to use the open AI API to build a Chatbot. So it gave me a bunch of steps And then I said, well, i don't have the time to do this.

Zohra Mutabanna: 25:04

Can you simplify it for me and create a training plan that spans over five days? And it did that. So it's like a conversation, it's iterative, you work on your prompts And I've actually created a training plan for myself that I'm going to put into practice. So my company has these days called Tech Thursdays once a month, where you get the whole day to experiment and do what you want. It could be anything. You can learn a tool, you can try something new. It's your time, it's for professional development.

Zohra Mutabanna: 25:35

So the way I've created that plan is to see how I can use those eight hours to build a Chatbot by the end of the day. So let's see what happens, but it's come up with an amazing training plan for me. So anybody that feels the cool thing about these AI tools is you can ask them how do I use you Right, i think and this is not me saying. Somebody else actually mentioned this And I started thinking about it with Google search. You didn't know how to use Google search. With these AI tools, you can ask them how do I use you And they teach you how to use them.

Felicity Brand: 26:08

Isn't that cool. This is getting a bit meta. I'm a bit. All right, Zohra, let's get into the lightning round. Let's see if we can do some rapid fire questions And I'll see if I can answer them too, just to share the love. So what's one kind of communication you wish you could do better? First, waste of communication. Yeah, i think for me I'd say speaking Okay, who is a communicator who inspires you?

Zohra Mutabanna: 26:39

If I had to, pick, it would be my dad. Oh, why is that? He is no more, But when he was born in India and he went to a vernacular medium, So his education was not. His primary education was not in English, But by the time I came into his life I would have never known that he was not English educated. So he just became my role model And he spoke several languages. So I think you know he was a big influence.

Felicity Brand: 27:08

That's fantastic. I'm always. I am monolingual. I'm always impressed by people who can speak multiple languages. What's one thing you wish you knew about tech writing when you were getting started? That's a tricky one, because you've had such a long history, so the industry has probably changed.

Zohra Mutabanna: 27:30

Yes, if somebody had told me that technical writing is going to change and you'll have to constantly pivot, that would have been awesome, because I got into thinking you're just doing this documentation. The vision of this profession is you're working in silos. That's not true. I thought all I would do is sit and write, but it's 20% writing and 80% talking to people. Yes, it's not a profession that is very conducive, i think, for introverts, because you really have to push yourself. Yes, many students that I mentor think that I will be on my own and I don't have to worry about anybody and I say I'm sorry, but that is not going to be your experience.

Felicity Brand: 28:17

Yes, i can agree with that one that you. I got into it for the writing, but you're so right when you say that writing is not the majority of what we do. Yes, absolutely. You work remote, as do I. What's your favorite piece of hardware in your home office setup?

Zohra Mutabanna: 28:37

I'm really not much of a gadget person, but if I had to pick one thing, i would think it's the camera, because it allows me to see the people that I'm talking to. I do not like to talk to people without the camera on. That would be my favorite piece of equipment.

Felicity Brand: 28:56

Yes, i like that. My favorite is my standing desk. I've got an electric standing desk so it can go up and down whenever I choose.

Zohra Mutabanna: 29:04

You know what? Can I change my answer? I love my standing desk more than my camera.

Felicity Brand: 29:09

Do you have an anti fatigue standing mat? I do Yes, my manager highly recommended it.

Zohra Mutabanna: 29:17

I did not have it but thanks to Colleen I got it.

Felicity Brand: 29:21

Highly recommend. One last word to describe you as a communicator.

Zohra Mutabanna: 29:27

You know what I'm going to take your compliment, the active listener part. I think that has become my strength since I've been podcasting. Yes, i love it. You have to listen to become a better communicator.

Felicity Brand: 29:43

Yeah, that's so great. I don't think I can describe one word to describe me as a communicator, enthusiastic. That's all I got. I think that we can probably wrap up now. Zohra, is there anything that we haven't talked about that you thought we might cover today?

Zohra Mutabanna: 30:02

AI was on top of my mind and working remote. Those are the two topics that I wanted to talk about. I will say this Those companies that think being remote takes away from the experience. I think I've benefited more being in-person teams, because there can be a lot of toxicity there. Honestly, i work better and I'm more productive when I'm away from that sort of toxicity. Of course, one thing I would like to say is for all technical communicators that are out there grab your seat at the table and try to involve yourself as early on in the process as you can upstream, because that is going to empower you and that's going to be your advantage And be open to AI tools. Just be curious, and that's what we do. We are always learning, and that's how we should approach AI as well.

Felicity Brand: 30:59

Yes, i absolutely agree. Yes, where can we find you? Where can people go to listen to your podcast?

Zohra Mutabanna: 31:07

I have a website. It's inside techcomm. show. Many people think it's in site, but it's inside. You can grab my latest episodes from there. I'm also an actor on LinkedIn. I would love for people to connect with me because I'm a lifelong learner and I always learn from people, so I would invite people to connect with me.

Felicity Brand: 31:32

Yes, and we'll put those links in our show notes And I thoroughly recommend your podcast and I really enjoyed the episode about content research. That was fascinating and I was remembering happy times at my former job where my fellow tech writer and I were embedded in the UX team and we had an account with user testingcom, which isa quite expensive tool and it is amazing, and so, of course, the UX designers were using that tool to test all their features that they wanted to test. But we as tech writers got to use it as well so we could do A B testing on some language choices. We were creating a new wizard and we could step the users through the pages of the wizard. It was so good and you got the recording of the user. That's fantastic, like talking through where. Oh yeah, it was gold. So I really loved listening to your guest talking about content research and I really recommend all the tech writers out there try and test their docs if they have the opportunity.

Zohra Mutabanna: 32:41

I think that's great advice. Absolutely Content research needs to be done.

Felicity Brand: 32:46

I was going to say yeah, and that kind of taps into what you were talking about earlier about bias and how we really need to have high quality docs if they're going into that. Ai or, like LLMs, large language models, only through testing through users and finding out what your effective content is, is what's going to give you high quality content into an AI system.

Zohra Mutabanna: 33:10

No, that's an interesting perspective, absolutely, i think, you know.

Felicity Brand: 33:13

But who has the time? No one's going to fund that Zohra.

Zohra Mutabanna: 33:17

I know, you know what. That's why we are here. That's why we are here to advocate for content.

Felicity Brand: 33:22

Well, i've really enjoyed talking with you today, thank you. People can find out about OSP at openstrategypartnerscom. We would love for you to listen to our podcast. I hope to see you around, Zohra. I know that we're both in Right the Docs, so perhaps we can catch up there someday soon, absolutely.

Zohra Mutabanna: 33:42

Thank you so much for this opportunity. Thank you.

Carl Richards: 34:18

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this podcast, all the P's at OSP, thanks to our clients who believe in us. Shout out to Patrick Gaumont for our high-energy maple syrup flavored theme music And to Mike Snow for additional horn arrangements. Thank you for listening and subscribing. About our three themes on the podcast, you'll hear from different members of the OSP team hosting episodes over time. Communicate All things. communication We share how we tackle writing, editing, word choices, formats, processes and more.

Carl Richards: 34:55

Connect In-depth conversations with interesting, smart people about who they are, what they do and how they approach their life and work as communicators, technologists and leaders. Grow We cover strategic approaches to understanding and expressing the value of what you do, including tools, templates and practical applications. We also feel strongly about building a mindful, positive, human first culture at work. That's bound to pop up from time to time too. This podcast is us figuring out communication, connection and growing together. Subscribe now on YouTube, apple Podcast or the podcast channel of your choice. Follow us, suggest guests and topics. Ask us questions on social media. We are at Open Underscore Strategy on Twitter Until next time. Thanks for listening to Communicate Connect Grow The OSP Podcast.